#css IRC Log


IRC Log for 2013-07-03

Timestamps are in PDT.

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[08:09] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/03-css-irc

[08:09] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style

[08:09] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 52 minutes

[08:09] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public

[08:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou

[08:10] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0061.html'

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[08:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started

[08:58] <Zakim> +??P20

[08:58] <glazou> Zakim, ??P20 is me

[08:58] <Zakim> +glazou; got it

[08:59] <Zakim> +Krit

[08:59] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]

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[09:00] * SimonSapin Quit ("Leaving.")

[09:00] <Zakim> +plinss

[09:00] <Zakim> +??P28

[09:00] <leif> Zakim, I am P28

[09:00] <Zakim> sorry, leif, I do not see a party named 'P28'

[09:00] * dael has joined #css

[09:00] <glazou> leif, your phone is super-noisy...

[09:00] <leif> Zakim, I am ??P28

[09:00] <Zakim> +leif; got it

[09:00] <leif> Zakim, mute me

[09:00] <Zakim> leif should now be muted

[09:01] <glazou> yep that was your phone, thanks leif

[09:01] <leif> argh, I thought it would be fixed if I just muted on my end

[09:01] <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aaaa

[09:01] <leif> time try ditch Ekiga, I think

[09:01] <dael> zakim, aaaa is me

[09:01] <Zakim> +dael; got it

[09:01] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

[09:01] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me

[09:01] <Zakim> +florian; got it

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[09:02] <Zakim> + +93192aabb

[09:02] <antonp> Zakim, aabb is me

[09:02] <Zakim> +antonp; got it

[09:02] <Zakim> +Lea

[09:02] * abucur Quit ("Leaving.")

[09:03] <Zakim> +??P53

[09:03] <SimonSapin> Zakim, P53 is me

[09:03] <Zakim> sorry, SimonSapin, I do not recognize a party named 'P53'

[09:03] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P53 is me

[09:03] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it

[09:03] <nvdbleek> zakim, code?

[09:03] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek

[09:03] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aacc

[09:03] * dael Quit (Client closed connection)

[09:03] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?

[09:03] <Zakim> +fantasai

[09:03] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (38%), [IPcaller] (21%), antonp (9%), ??P59 (60%)

[09:04] <Zakim> +nvdbleek

[09:04] <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me

[09:04] <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted

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[09:04] <Zakim> +??P9

[09:04] <Zakim> -??P9

[09:05] <Zakim> +??P9

[09:05] <glenn> zakim, ??p9 is me

[09:05] <Zakim> +glenn; got it

[09:05] <Zakim> +SteveZ

[09:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]

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[09:06] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen

[09:06] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it

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[09:06] <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aadd

[09:06] <SimonSapin> ScribeNick: SimonSapin

[09:06] <Zakim> +smfr

[09:07] <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aaee

[09:07] <jerenkrantz_> Zakim, aaee is jerenkrantz

[09:07] <Zakim> +jerenkrantz; got it

[09:07] <SimonSapin> Topic: CSSMatrix review

[09:07] <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/matrix/index.html

[09:07] * koji has joined #css

[09:07] <SimonSapin> krit: SVGMatrix is 2D. With transforms, we need 3D

[09:08] * glazou could use that 3D matrix right away in his own code !!!

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[09:08] <SimonSapin> krit: discussed having a CSSMatrix interface, unified between specs

[09:08] <SimonSapin> krit: asking for FPWD. Concerns/discussion to the ML

[09:08] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]

[09:08] <koji> zakim, ipcalle.a is me

[09:08] <Zakim> sorry, koji, I do not recognize a party named 'ipcalle.a'

[09:08] <SimonSapin> Topic: I18N / Text issues

[09:08] <Zakim> +dbaron

[09:08] <koji> zakim, ipcaller.a is me

[09:09] <Zakim> +koji; got it

[09:09] <Zakim> +??P73

[09:09] <SimonSapin> plinss: follow up on text-align-last

[09:09] <TabAtkins> zakim, ??p73 is me

[09:09] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it

[09:09] <SimonSapin> fantasai: ??? is not on the call, defer

[09:10] <smfr> s/???/rossen

[09:10] <SimonSapin> Topic: Writing modes

[09:10] <SimonSapin> fantasai: ML discussion with jdagget

[09:10] <SimonSapin> fantasai: jdagget���s proposal for exact rules of resizing. Spec says UA-defined

[09:11] <SimonSapin> fantasai: Put his algo as an example, eg. examples of things that could go wrong

[09:11] <SimonSapin> fantasai: but leave normative text as UA-defined, leave leeway

[09:11] <Zakim> +??P75

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[09:11] <SimonSapin> fantasai: UA could give better results than this exact algorithm

[09:11] <SimonSapin> fantasai: Koji and I want to allow better results

[09:12] <SimonSapin> fantasai: but want to make sure it���s at least "good". Having an example algo is a good way to do that

[09:12] <SimonSapin> florian: how to add controls in future levels on UA-defined behavior?

[09:12] * dbaron notes fantasai is very loud

[09:13] <SimonSapin> fantasai: Plan is to have text-compression-switch, where the default is auto

[09:13] <SimonSapin> florian: some switches match auto

[09:14] <SimonSapin> florian: worried about "do what you want auto", if one UA is dominant, hopefully it���s not too broken

[09:14] <SimonSapin> florian: content will depend on the de-facto meaning of auto

[09:14] <SimonSapin> fantasai: if we have an example in the spec, most UAs will follow that and then try to do better

[09:14] <Zakim> +Bert

[09:14] <SimonSapin> fantasai: example is not complicated

[09:15] <SimonSapin> florian: would be nice to have tests for this non-normative description

[09:15] <SimonSapin> fantasai: we can have "may" tests

[09:15] <SimonSapin> fantasai: tests specific to OpenType, specific fonts

[09:16] <SimonSapin> fantasai: with clear examples, impl will follow

[09:16] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: concern: dealing with 2 things. auto is used to do the right thing for the normal case, bunch of features separately

[09:16] * darktears Quit (Client closed connection)

[09:16] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: example: full-size latin letter different than latin letters, without markup

[09:17] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: there, clear algorithm

[09:17] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: here, auto is you can do possibly better than this

[09:17] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: different use of auto

[09:17] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: not sure you really want auto

[09:17] <SimonSapin> fantasai: it is automagic

[09:17] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: users complain without the magic

[09:18] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: people want to do what the users expect

[09:18] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: to way to have this is normative text and test cases

[09:18] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: examples are nice but ��� we trip over automagic

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[09:19] <SimonSapin> fantasai: don���t expect lock-in in this case

[09:19] <SimonSapin> fantasai: if you do a good job, no need to match against anything else

[09:19] <SimonSapin> fantasai: if it looks bad, you���re just gonna not use the feature

[09:19] <SimonSapin> fantasai: no option to tweak the layout

[09:20] <SimonSapin> fantasai: enable tatechyu?? or not

[09:20] <SimonSapin> fantasai: no effect on the rest of the layout

[09:20] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: still uncomfortable about undefined automagic

[09:20] <SimonSapin> koji: discussing rendering quality, doesn���t matter much

[09:21] <SimonSapin> florian: little uncomfortable, but can go with this

[09:21] <SimonSapin> plinss: jdagget seems to have concerns with this. Can you summarize?

[09:21] <SimonSapin> fantasai: he���s concerned that impl. will do worse because the can normatively

[09:22] <SimonSapin> s/the/they/

[09:22] <SimonSapin> fantasai: we want examples of "don���t do this"

[09:22] <SimonSapin> plinss: normative restrictions? "Can do better, but don���t do this"

[09:22] <SimonSapin> florian: limited normative requirements

[09:22] <SimonSapin> plinss: problem is defining "better"

[09:22] <SimonSapin> plinss: objections?

[09:23] <SimonSapin> fantasai: proposal is: normative prose says "UA-defined how the compression happens, but must transform full-width and ??? before you do any scaling"

[09:23] <SimonSapin> fantasai: then add an example algo

[09:23] <SimonSapin> fantasai: and suggestions to do better

[09:24] <SimonSapin> fantasai: require transforming at least full-width

[09:24] <SimonSapin> fantasai: example of what people expect. Can do simpler, can do smarter, but don���t do this that looks bad

[09:24] <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: accepted the above proposal

[09:24] <SimonSapin> Topic: Text decoration

[09:25] * darktears has joined #css

[09:25] <SimonSapin> plinss: issue: making line positioning undefined

[09:25] <SimonSapin> fantasai: discussed at F2F

[09:26] <SimonSapin> fantasai: CSS21 says "position and thickness is undefined. May consider font info of the descendant that you are underlining, but not required. Can have one non-broken line"

[09:26] <SimonSapin> fantasai: 2 interpretations

[09:26] <SimonSapin> (missed them)

[09:26] <SimonSapin> fantasai: either way, consider the descedants

[09:26] <SimonSapin> fantasai: in L3, tighten up prose

[09:27] <SimonSapin> fantasai: ARIA concern when strike-through doesn���t go through the text

[09:27] <SimonSapin> fantasai: what to consider or not, eg. skip vertical-alin

[09:28] <SimonSapin> fantasai: dbaron against. Complicated, and bunch of links that should be the same up one containing some super-text, off by a few px

[09:28] <SimonSapin> fantasai: F2F proposal: ???

[09:28] <SimonSapin> fantasai: works poorly for ARIA���s concern case

[09:28] <SimonSapin> fantasai: underline can cut through the text, when that text becomes bigger

[09:28] <SimonSapin> fantasai: I think this is worse than a few px off

[09:29] <SimonSapin> fantasai: don���t want to require this behavior

[09:29] <SimonSapin> fantasai: underline should be on one side of the text alway IMO, not cut

[09:29] <SimonSapin> fantasai: in vertical text

[09:29] <SimonSapin> fantasai: For this level, no consensus, undefined like 2.1

[09:29] <SimonSapin> fantasai: deal with it in L4

[09:30] <SimonSapin> dbaron: fine with me, with explanation why

[09:30] <SimonSapin> fantasai: ok, specifics?

[09:30] <SimonSapin> dbaron: the two rationales that you just said

[09:30] <SimonSapin> plinss: opinions?

[09:31] <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: text-decoration line thickness and position undefined in L3

[09:31] <SimonSapin> fantasai: 2 more issues

[09:31] <SteveZ> What can we do to resolve this in Level 4

[09:31] <SimonSapin> fantasai: shadows. Text underlined, separate shadow? Or composite together and shadow that

[09:31] <SimonSapin> fantasai: different with semi-transparant shadow color

[09:32] <SimonSapin> fantasai: I think we want the shadow to be drawn at once, combined

[09:32] <SimonSapin> dbaron: that���s a lot more impl. work

[09:32] * leaverou speaking of that, what happens when *letters* intersect? Separate shadows or one composited?

[09:33] <hober> Zakim, aacc is me

[09:33] <Zakim> +hober; got it

[09:33] <SimonSapin> dbaron: I don���t know that we define it for text without shadows, but should be the same

[09:33] * teoli__ Quit (Client closed connection)

[09:33] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]

[09:33] <SimonSapin> smfr: Within the same text run, one shadow

[09:34] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]

[09:34] * teoli has joined #css

[09:34] <SimonSapin> smfr: accross spans maybe not

[09:34] <SimonSapin> smfr: for the underline, looks nicer if painted as one

[09:34] <SimonSapin> leaverou: I think composited shadows make more sense, but can also be achieved with filters

[09:34] <SimonSapin> dbaron: I think this should be left undefined at this level

[09:35] <SimonSapin> fantasai: ok with that

[09:35] <SimonSapin> leaverou: what do browsers do?

[09:35] <SimonSapin> dbaron: (missed)

[09:35] <SimonSapin> leaverou: what if letters overlap?

[09:35] <SimonSapin> dbaron: not sure, depends on whether they have the same font

[09:36] <SimonSapin> leaverou: overlapping letters are more important

[09:36] <SimonSapin> florian: how expensive is it?

[09:36] <SimonSapin> dbaron: don���t know

[09:36] <SimonSapin> fantasai: text-decoration always overlaps ��� or maybe not

[09:37] <SimonSapin> dbaron: sort of decision where the group makes a resolution that requires impl. to trow out code and start again

[09:37] <SimonSapin> dbaron: needs more consideration that 3 min on a telecon

[09:37] * teoli Quit (Client closed connection)

[09:37] <SimonSapin> dbaron: should research what impl. do

[09:37] <SteveZ> +1 for David's point

[09:37] * teoli has joined #css

[09:38] <SimonSapin> dbaron: if we have interop on one thing and add "should" on something else, are we ever gonna get it?

[09:38] <SimonSapin> Rossen: anyone have a quick test case?

[09:38] <SimonSapin> krit: need images from different browsers

[09:38] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: how soon do we need an answer?

[09:39] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: leave it undefined at the moment, and come back later

[09:39] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: what does Illustrator does?

[09:39] <SimonSapin> krit: have to check

[09:39] <SimonSapin> s/does/do/

[09:39] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: need testing before deciding anything

[09:39] <SimonSapin> plinss: to we want to go to CR or wait on this?

[09:40] <leaverou> very quick testcase I just made: http://dabblet.com/gist/5920266

[09:40] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: can we add "should" and mark it at-risk?

[09:40] <SimonSapin> florian: typically not at-risk for changing our minds, rather for lack of impl

[09:40] <SimonSapin> florian: if we put the should, it encourages ppl to follow it. If we have interop, it���s bad to break it

[09:41] <dbaron> leaverou, you should also try (a) mixed LTR and RTL text within the same element and (b) an element boundary with a color change (c) an element boundary without a color change

[09:41] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: can we get research by next week?

[09:41] <SimonSapin> leaverou: looks like every browser overlap ???

[09:41] * JohnJansen Quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)

[09:41] <leaverou> yes dbaron, it was a one minute thing :)

[09:41] <SimonSapin> florian: old Opera makes the overlapped letters darker

[09:42] <SimonSapin> dbaron: Gecko on Linux does not overlap

[09:42] <fantasai> ?^: If there's a should, then it encourages implementations to work towards that. if we already have interop on the opposite, then that encourages *less* interop

[09:42] <SimonSapin> dbaron: might depend on platform-specific text rendering

[09:42] <SimonSapin> florian: Presto doing it wrong, but not relevant anymore

[09:42] * fantasai SimonSapin, so sorry, *just* managed to get connected

[09:43] <SimonSapin> fantasai, it���s fine :)

[09:43] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai

[09:43] <fantasai> plinss: path forward?

[09:43] <SimonSapin> plinss: leave it undefined?

[09:43] <fantasai> smfr: think we have to leave it undefined

[09:43] <fantasai> fantasai: works for me

[09:43] * krit SteveZ you can just specify shadow on the text group in illustrator

[09:43] <fantasai> rossen: it's ok

[09:43] <fantasai> plinss: ok, undefined in L3

[09:43] <fantasai> RESOLVED: undefined in L3

[09:44] <fantasai> fantasai: dbaron raised an issue on whether alphabetic is needed for text-underline-position. I don't know, so have no oinion.

[09:44] <fantasai> dbaron: who thinks it is necessary?

[09:44] * teoli_ has joined #css

[09:44] <fantasai> szilles: my response is, what are we objecting to in alphabetic?

[09:45] * teoli Quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)

[09:45] <fantasai> dbaron: Wasn't clear to me how to implement this stuff

[09:45] <fantasai> dbaron: or which value matched existing implementations

[09:45] <smfr> can we have a url for this discussion?

[09:45] <fantasai> dbaron: also there's issues with using font metrics for underlining

[09:46] <fantasai> dbaron: if you use the underlining metrics from the font, which value of text-underline-position is it?

[09:46] <fantasai> dbaron: if you have a CJK font, which underline are you using?

[09:46] <fantasai> szilles: CJK fonts usually have two sets of metrics

[09:46] <SimonSapin> smfr, I don���t find it from the minutes :/

[09:46] <fantasai> szilles: You can choose the dominant baseline in a table based

[09:47] <fantasai> fantasai: I thought fonts had various baselines, but only one underline position metric

[09:47] <dbaron> smfr, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-decor-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-6

[09:47] <koji> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0139.html

[09:47] <fantasai> szilles: you may be right. I think in CJK fonts, underlines are lower than alphabetic, because CJK characters descend lower than alphabetic baseline

[09:47] <fantasai> szilles: feedback from Adobe Typography was, use the font baseline if it's there.

[09:48] <fantasai> dbaron: So question then is, which value in CSS spec corresponds to that?

[09:48] <fantasai> s/that/use the font metrics/

[09:48] <fantasai> dbaron: My problem with this spec is, it's hard for me to understand how to implement

[09:48] <fantasai> szilles: I understand. Happy to work with fantasai to fix that.

[09:48] <fantasai> koji: spec says alphabetic is based on font emtrics

[09:50] <fantasai> fantasai: [describes original intention of values, which had nothing to do with whether to use font metrics]

[09:50] <fantasai> fantasai: If you're ignoring font metrics, spec is very simple to implement.

[09:50] <fantasai> fantasai: If you're using font metrics, then have problem that fonts aren't clear on what their metrics represent

[09:51] <fantasai> fantasai: Because some fonts think the underline metric represents the alphabetic position, and others think it represents the accounting position.

[09:52] <fantasai> fantasai: Webkit, for example, doesn't use font metrics. Just picks a position below the alphabetic line.

[09:52] <fantasai> szilles: bad typography

[09:52] <fantasai> szilles: [... some issue of font metrics ...]

[09:52] <fantasai> szilles: So dbaron's point was, how do I implement what's there?

[09:53] * tantek Quit (Client closed connection)

[09:53] <fantasai> dbaron: Part of reason to drop alphabetic is that there's nothing left in spec that's unclear

[09:53] * BradK has joined #CSS

[09:53] <fantasai> szilles: But doesn't auto ask for alphabetic position?

[09:53] <fantasai> szilles: I'm not attached to alphabetic value, want auto to do something reasonable

[09:53] <BradK> Sorry I'm late. What did I miss?

[09:53] <BradK> jk

[09:53] <Zakim> -Krit

[09:53] <fantasai> dbaron: auto is vague enough that we can just keep our current implementation

[09:54] <Zakim> +Krit

[09:54] <fantasai> florian: Is it bad to disallow looking at font metrics?

[09:54] <fantasai> szilles: Yes, that is bad.

[09:55] <Zakim> +BradK

[09:55] <fantasai> dbaron: also, what is the use case for alphabetic?

[09:55] <fantasai> szilles: seems to be same as auto

[09:55] <fantasai> dbaron: for the cases where you would want it, at least

[09:55] * leaverou LOL BradK

[09:55] <fantasai> szilles: So, you're reasonably happy with current definition of auto

[09:56] <fantasai> szilles: ...

[09:56] <fantasai> dbaron: alphabetic is same thing as auto in cases where you want it, but also unclear how to use font metrics

[09:57] <florian> s/disallow looking at font metrics/disallow looking at font metrics for non-auto values/

[09:57] <fantasai> fantasai: Current spec has blanket statement for using font metrics wherever appropriate

[09:58] * tantek has joined #css

[09:58] <fantasai> szilles: Can we come up with a definition of appropriate?

[09:58] <fantasai> fantasai: Don't really want to do that...

[09:58] <fantasai> fantasai: Maybe drop alphabetic, and tackle that in L4 if someone wants to define it for OpenType

[09:58] <fantasai> fantasai: "appropriate" allows, e.g. blacklisting metrics of bad fonts

[09:59] <fantasai> plinss: What does it mean for vertical text

[10:00] <fantasai> fantasai: vertical text has an alphabetic baseline; should be defined in writing modes

[10:00] <fantasai> fantasai: text decoration spec is in terms of over/under (relative) directions

[10:00] <fantasai> fantasai: so no issue here

[10:00] <fantasai> szilles: should auto do the right thing in vertical text?

[10:01] <Zakim> -Krit

[10:01] <Zakim> - +1.212.318.aadd

[10:02] <fantasai> fantasai: Interesting question. If you have sideways Latin in vertical orientation, want the underline to look just like in horiziontal text

[10:02] <fantasai> fantasai: but if typeset upright, want to shift it over

[10:02] <fantasai> fantasai: similar problem to CJK in horizontal, want to make sure it shifts down enough

[10:02] <fantasai> fantasai: so maybe add examples to the spec showing things UA needs to consider...

[10:02] <fantasai> plinss: So, do we want to drop alphabetic?

[10:02] <fantasai> fantasai: think so

[10:02] <fantasai> szilles: now that I understand dbaron's issues, makes sense to me

[10:03] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Drop alphabetic

[10:03] <fantasai> plinss: Move to CR?

[10:03] <fantasai> fantasai: Have to make edits, but that does close all the issues

[10:04] <Zakim> -dael

[10:04] * dael Quit (dael)

[10:04] <fantasai> ...

[10:04] <fantasai> szilles: My understanding of our decisions today was, take conservative approach, don't define anything new

[10:04] <Zakim> -hober

[10:04] <fantasai> fantasai: Yep, so no need for another LC

[10:04] <Zakim> -dbaron

[10:04] <Zakim> -SteveZ

[10:04] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Take CSS3 Text Decoration to LC

[10:04] <Zakim> -leif

[10:04] <Zakim> -BradK

[10:04] * leif has left #css

[10:04] <Zakim> -glazou

[10:04] <Zakim> -Bert

[10:04] <Zakim> -nvdbleek

[10:04] <Zakim> -antonp

[10:04] * nvdbleek Quit (nvdbleek)

[10:04] <Zakim> -fantasai

[10:04] <Zakim> -??P75

[10:04] <Zakim> -Lea

[10:04] <Zakim> -glenn

[10:04] * glazou Quit (glazou)

[10:04] <Zakim> -smfr

[10:04] <Zakim> -koji

[10:04] <Zakim> -SimonSapin

[10:04] <Zakim> -plinss

[10:05] <Zakim> -TabAtkins

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[10:13] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

[10:15] * BradK Quit ("Buh bye")

[10:18] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, jerenkrantz, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM

[10:18] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended

[10:18] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, Krit, plinss, leif, +1.610.324.aaaa, dael, florian, +93192aabb, antonp, Lea, SimonSapin, +1.619.846.aacc, fantasai, nvdbleek, glenn, SteveZ, JohnJansen,

[10:18] <Zakim> ... +1.212.318.aadd, smfr, +1.212.318.aaee, jerenkrantz, [IPcaller], dbaron, koji, TabAtkins, Bert, hober, BradK

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[14:11] <fantasai> great, www-style-request decided to unsubscribe me from www-style

[14:12] <hober> wat

[14:12] <fantasai> why am I responsible for the fact that bradlit@windows.microsoft.com bounces email?

[14:12] * fantasai does not understand

[14:12] <fantasai> Bert?

[14:12] <SimonSapin> fantasai: yay, same as me in Tokyo!

[14:12] <fantasai> ?

[14:13] <fantasai> guess it's time to go splice MBOX files...

[14:13] <fantasai> :/

[14:13] * antonp Quit (antonp)

[14:14] <SimonSapin> The same thing happened to me, I got unsubscribed because someone (I think the same address) bounces

[14:14] <TabAtkins> How weird!

[14:14] <SimonSapin> plh added my address to some whitelist, and I reported the issue to sysreq

[14:14] <SimonSapin> but apparently it���s not fixed yet

[14:14] <fantasai> can we unsubscribe the address responsible?

[14:16] <SimonSapin> probably

[14:16] <SimonSapin> but we should also fix the W3C MTA kicking the wrong person out on bounces

[14:20] * fantasai tries to figure out how to edit an MBOX of www-style containing all messages from early 2000 without crashing or hanging a text editor

[14:20] * fantasai might have to resort to cat

[14:23] <SimonSapin> fantasai: there is a thunderbird extension for importing mbox files

[14:24] <SimonSapin> I did that with files from the archive, eyeballed the date range I was missing, and copied the messages using thunderbird

[14:24] <SimonSapin> I wouldn���t mess with thuderbird���s storage using other tools

[14:24] <fantasai> oh, yeah

[14:24] <fantasai> I forgot how I usually do this... creating a new mbox and using TB's move functions :)

[14:25] <fantasai> that's much easier

[14:25] <SimonSapin> yeah

[14:25] <fantasai> well, all spliced already

[14:25] <fantasai> it should be okay

[14:29] <fantasai> w00t, all minutes posted!!!!!!

[14:30] <TabAtkins> Woo!

[14:41] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed

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[16:49] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Preprocessor now distinguishes between value definitions and term definitions, so you can, for example, have both <dfn>initial</dfn> and <dfn>''initial''</dfn> in the document. It'll auto-link appropriately in both cases.

[16:49] <TabAtkins> Long-weekend project is getting the cross-spec xrefs working.

[16:50] <TabAtkins> (<i>initial</i> links to the first one, ''initiall'' links to the second one)

[17:12] <liam> ah, right, this coming weekend is probably a bigger holiday than this past weekend for you

[17:12] <liam> (we just had Canada Day, when people let off fireworks and bathe in maple syrup)

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[17:23] <TabAtkins> liam: Indeed. One of my friends gets to have both, as she just came down this week from Canada, so her home office was closed earlier and this office is closed now.

[17:28] <liam> :D

[17:28] <liam> that's cheating!

[17:29] <TabAtkins> She just needs to head down to the paris office in a week or so to catch bastille day.

[17:34] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Cool. Please don't have the preprocessor expect extra 'l's on the references, though.

[17:35] <liam> I was wondering about the extra ell too.

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